Curse

Sniper22 · Sep 07, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

lol, little off topic but i agree with how r6 teach r3 and down, r9 teach r6.

ac1inferno · Sep 07, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Heres two definitions and a story:
Newb - new player, but is willing to learn
Noob - terrible, arrogant, ignorant player who refuses to learn

About 12 months ago, I was a Newb Monk. I spammed Orison and Breeze for heals. It worked for me in PvE and Monks are always wanted there so I thought it must work anywhere else also. After completing PvE, I decided to move on to PvP. Doing Ra, Orison and Breeze worked for me there also so I thought PvP is really easy. I couldn't understand what all the hype about Ha and Rank was all about if PvP was so easy so I decided to go there myself and take a look. I joined an Unranked Randomway Pug. We were lucky enough to kill the Zaishen with 2 Morale Boost but once we got to the Underworld, we were rolled over in less than 45 seconds. The group finally disformed after a few more losses.

Now at this point, I could've whined and whined and given up Ha convincing myself that rank didn't mean anything. But I didn't.

I studied what builds other people were running. The popular builds and what skills they are running. Got to know the layout for each of the maps and the objectives for winning. Visited official fan site PvP sections and forums. Read articles by high ranked players to gain insight on this game type. Opened Observer mode and watch top rated Heroes' Ascent and Hall of Heroes battles and watch particular players. Noted what skills they were using and watched how they responded to any given situation. Asked in Observer Mode for Attributes and Skills for certain builds. Watched the public chat. If I saw someone going "Mo/Me Rc Prot LFG" I asked him/her about his/her build (attributes, skills etc.)

I wasn't ranked yet so I still had to join groups below Rank 3. But this time, I made sure they had a solid team build and voice communication such as Teamspeak or Ventrilo. I rolled a popular build and join a group that did not require rank. When I won a few rounds, I added the leader of that group to my Friends List and next time I went into HA, I would send a whisper to that person and ask if he/she is forming a group. I also added other players who wanted Fame as much as I did and asked them if I could join their group later. By building my Friends List with solid contacts and maintaining a solid Friends List I had a much easier time joining successful groups and gaining Fame. I kept up with the Heroes' Ascent meta game. I was always prepared by having popular builds ready to go when I looked for a group.

I'm Rank 6 now and still going higher. However, I never forgot how hard it was for me. I used to help people that I came across but eventually stopped because of the attitude I was given back. Most of the time when I whispered someone to give helpful advice and criticism on their build, I was greeted back with a "stfu noob i pwn u 1v1." After too much of this, I decided that if they asked for help I would, but I'm not going out of my way to see if you want my help or not.

Point of story: There is no need for Rankers to go out of their way to help Newbs. Newbs will teach themselves or they will ask questions when they need help. Noobs stay silent and don't ask any questions. Noobs whine that theres no help and things are too hard and that everyone is an Elitist snob. Noobs think that having a Ranker letting them into their Ranked group is the only way of helping them. Newbs understand that receiving help isn't bad, but not doing anything on their own is.
The reason why Rankers don't randomly help everyone they come across is because they can't tell if the person behind a bad build is a Newb or a Noob and whether or not their advice will be listened to or not. Newbs approach Rankers with questions. It's not just all Elitist Pro's. There are nice people who will respond if asked politely. If answering a Newb's question is easy enough, they would do it. Noobs continue to whine that there is no help until they will be let into a Ranked group.
Rankers don't need to sort through the masses for Newbs and Noobs to give help. The Newbs will go to them to ask for it. While the Noobs endlessly whine.

Also I should point out:
Running builds like Iway still help more than just standing around outside Ha whining about how no ranked groups would take you in. By going against better builds and being on the receiving end, you still learn more than you would if you did nothing at all.

Targren · Sep 08, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Heres two definitions and a story:
Newb - new player, but is willing to learn
Noob - terrible, arrogant, ignorant player who refuses to learn

Point of story: There is no need for Rankers to go out of their way to help Newbs. Newbs will teach themselves or they will ask questions when they need help. Noobs stay silent and don't ask any questions. Noobs whine that theres no help and things are too hard and that everyone is an Elitist snob. Noobs think that having a Ranker letting them into their Ranked group is the only way of helping them. Newbs understand that receiving help isn't bad, but not doing anything on their own is.
The reason why Rankers don't randomly help everyone they come across is because they can't tell if the person behind a bad build is a Newb or a Noob and whether or not their advice will be listened to or not. Newbs approach Rankers with questions. It's not just all Elitist Pro's. There are nice people who will respond if asked politely. If answering a Newb's question is easy enough, they would do it. Noobs continue to whine that there is no help until they will be let into a Ranked group.
Rankers don't need to sort through the masses for Newbs and Noobs to give help. The Newbs will go to them to ask for it. While the Noobs endlessly whine.

Also I should point out:
Running builds like Iway still help more than just standing around outside Ha whining about how no ranked groups would take you in. By going against better builds and being on the receiving end, you still learn more than you would if you did nothing at all.

I appreciate your frustration with 'noobs'. The same sort of players exist on the PvE side of things. But you say you're willing to answer questions, which apparently makes you a rarity in my limited experience, unless your answers to said questions are limited to 'Lrn2ply QQ noob'.

Sab · Sep 08, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Experienced players have no obligation to teach new players. It's perfectly reasonable to expect someone new to teach themselves, learn from their own mistakes and to make new connections. They have all they need to do that - obs mode, guides and discussions here in the PvP section, Wiki, party search.

Before you call me an "elitist" for saying that, I do help people out when I can. If I see someone asking for help with builds or equipment, I ping them what they need. If I'm in a decent group and we need one more person, I usually whisper a decent low-rank person on my friends list and get them to come (this is where making connections comes in). And I used to pug in low-ranked groups when I have nothing else to do.

However, don't expect me or others to hold a new player's hand all the way. Like I said, they already have everything they need to get better at PvP. Take initiative, you won't get far in PvP without doing that.

Winterclaw · Sep 08, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Actually you're quite wrong. Most of the big names are so into their research that they couldn't be bothered to train students from the start.

Actually you are wrong. It's the college science professors at big universities more likely not to speak to students and would rather let a grad student or TA teach the class because they are too busy doing research and many have to have to get published every so often to keep their jobs. Not all like that thankfully, but there are some places where that sort of thing happens.

BTW, this idea could be tweaked somewhat to help people learn PvP as well if Anet doesn't want to add some areas to the battle islands.

AC1 is right in that if you want to be a good PvPer, you have to go out and learn it yourself, however I think there needs to be an ingame component to learning the class as well just to get people started in the right direction if nothing else. IE a place were you can learn the concepts without having to piss off your team.

Div · Sep 08, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Before nitpicking on minor points and ignoring the entire message, you might want to check your own facts. Avogadro became a High School teacher. All of them shared their work in some way.

Yeah, but you don't see him teaching kindergarten children. Similarly, we share our knowledge too, just that it's physically impossible to help EVERY SINGLE NOOB.

I, as well as most high ranked players, are willing to help out some lower ranked (sometimes r6, even r3) who at least show some promise and aren't completely clueless. What we don't do is babysit a r0 who is arrogant and won't listen to you. After having done so before, I would never consider doing it again because why waste my time teaching a r0 that's not even going to listen to me 90% of the time?

Before people start QQing about how high ranked people are elitist and don't help others, you should reflect on your fellow r0'ers and how they behave. I've gone into r0 groups to help them make builds, but they simply don't appreciate it.

And to be honest, some people just plain suck no matter how much you hold their hand. I've seen people that still play horribly despite constantly being around great players. I wouldn't consider myself a "bad" player, but I'm definitely not as talented or knowledgeable as some of the players in the top guilds.

Nightmare_Pwner · Sep 08, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

First off we are WAY off Topic. All we are doing now is Saying that Newbes or w.e Should not be helped and That is not what this post is even About. Its Idea s and Suuggestions for a System that could be in placed that Better Teaches Newbes so they can have some Basic Knowledge of GvG/HA

And Second...... WTH would a R9 Teach a R6 for? First off If your allrdy R6 You Know All to Most of the Builds How they are Played and How they Work. A R9 is the Exact Same. THERES NOTHING More that Can be Tought to one another. Unless some Brand New Pwnage Team Build Comes out. The ONLy Diffrence is that the R9 has obouisly Played More Got some More Fame and has a higher Number then the Rank 6 or what ever the Number Case may be. Even So Ranks Dont Nessasarly Make a Diffrence. a Rank 2 Could have Just as much or more Exp In the HA Area then say a Rank 9 or 10. Ranks Show Wins Basicly Knowledge and Tatics of Builds Etc Show Exp. So I dont know who the Hell came up with the Idea that R9 has Far Greater Knowlege then a R6 and Should be Teaching them and Onward LOL. Dumbest thing iv ever heard.

Targren · Sep 08, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Experienced players have no obligation to teach new players. It's perfectly reasonable to expect someone new to teach themselves, learn from their own mistakes and to make new connections. They have all they need to do that - obs mode, guides and discussions here in the PvP section, Wiki, party search.

No one said anything about 'obligation' at all. This is simply about incentive, giving the more experienced players a REASON to help out less experienced players. No one would be forced to do so, just like no one is forced to get 15k armor or any of the other optional aspects of the game. That's what is so mind-boggling about the 'QQ moar. I had two learn myself' crowd. This wouldn't effect them in the slightest if they didn't want it to, but they still claim it's a bad idea. The only possible reasoning that occurs to me is the 'No one should have it easier than me' attitude, which is, not to put too fine a point on it, BS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I, as well as most high ranked players, are willing to help out some lower ranked (sometimes r6, even r3) who at least show some promise and aren't completely clueless. What we don't do is babysit a r0 who is arrogant and won't listen to you. After having done so before, I would never consider doing it again because why waste my time teaching a r0 that's not even going to listen to me 90% of the time?

What about the r0 who would be genuinely grateful and will hang on every word you say, even if you told them to run a Mending Wammo? Not every r0 is a snotty 13 year old with delusions of adequacy and a sense of entitlement.

Sniper22 · Sep 08, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

I do have to say that the more casual players wont wanna spend hours on wiki, observer mode, and so on, because its just a pain. Learning pvp has to be easily available for everyone, and i'm sure this thread would get 10x more support if all the noobs got on here and started posting

ac1inferno · Sep 08, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

I do have to say that the more casual players wont wanna spend hours on wiki, observer mode, and so on, because its just a pain. Learning pvp has to be easily available for everyone, and i'm sure this thread would get 10x more support if all the noobs got on here and started posting

If you just want casual PvP, theres Ra, Ta, Hb, Ab, even Zaishen Elite/Challenge. Ha is very competitive and if you're not even going to spend some effort in learning, you have no right to complain that it is too hard.

Sniper22 · Sep 08, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

who said i wouldn't spend effort in learning... did you even read the openning post. It's about having more experienced people TEACH the noobs, so the noobs LEARN from the exp people. It's much easier to LEARN this way because you are LEARNING by expierence and actually doing HA, not by observer for hours and hours.

ac1inferno · Sep 08, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

who said i wouldn't spend effort in learning... did you even read the opening post. It's about having more experienced people TEACH the noobs, so the noobs LEARN from the exp people. It's much easier to LEARN this way because you are LEARNING by experience and actually doing HA, not by observer for hours and hours.

So you want someone to hold your hand and guide you along the whole way? Only noobs would support this idea because they would be thrilled to have a ranker let them into their ranked group. Newbs are capable of learning on their own. Newbs would learn from forums and observer modes. It doesn't even take hours like you exaggerated in your post.
Having someone teach you isn't the only way of learning. Using forums and observer mode is a way of learning. If you're not even going to do that, then it is refusing to spend effort in learning.

Sniper22 · Sep 08, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

So you want someone to hold your hand and guide you along the whole way? Only noobs would support this idea because they would be thrilled to have a ranker let them into their ranked group. Newbs are capable of learning on their own. Newbs would learn from forums and observer modes. It doesn't even take hours like you exaggerated in your post.
Having someone teach you isn't the only way of learning. Using forums and observer mode is a way of learning. If you're not even going to do that, then it is refusing to spend effort in learning.

There is a reason why we have schools u know. You don't expect kids to spend 6 hours at the library learning math/science/english for 6 hours and then expect them to learn a lot. Kids learn much better in school than on their own. Same goes for here. BTW even if u do learn from observer mode and stuff... no one would let that person into groups cause their rank doesn't show their xp, and then they spend like 3 hours a day trying to get into groups to only get like 5 fame.

ac1inferno · Sep 08, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

There is a reason why we have schools u know. You don't expect kids to spend 6 hours at the library learning math/science/english for 6 hours and then expect them to learn a lot. Kids learn much better in school than on their own. Same goes for here. BTW even if u do learn from observer mode and stuff... no one would let that person into groups cause their rank doesn't show their xp, and then they spend like 3 hours a day trying to get into groups to only get like 5 fame.

People learn better by talking to their other peers and friends instead of having a superior guide them down the whole road. If you watch enough observer mode and visit enough forums, you should know enough to make your own group instead of constantly seeking a ranked group that will accept you. When you make your own groups, you can determine which players are capable and which are not. Add them to your friends list so that if you ever want to give Ha another try later, you can whisper them. Maintaining a solid friends list can save you the time of looking for pug's that work. And if they get 5 fame, they should be happy. Every drop of fame counts because it all adds up.

dies like fish · Sep 08, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

All new HA players should create a giant guild so they can all help each other.

Targren · Sep 08, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by dies like fish

All new HA players should create a giant guild so they can all help each other.

That might be a good idea. The only problem with it is that, for some reason, ANet decided that all characters on one account should be forced into the same guild.

Sniper22 · Sep 08, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

People learn better by talking to their other peers and friends instead of having a superior guide them down the whole road. If you watch enough observer mode and visit enough forums, you should know enough to make your own group instead of constantly seeking a ranked group that will accept you. When you make your own groups, you can determine which players are capable and which are not. Add them to your friends list so that if you ever want to give Ha another try later, you can whisper them. Maintaining a solid friends list can save you the time of looking for pug's that work. And if they get 5 fame, they should be happy. Every drop of fame counts because it all adds up.

ya make your own group, tried that already lol. Seems like most of them don't know what they are doing either. I tried tell this monk what build to bring... and he just wont even respond because he doesn't listen, or hes just confused. Most other people dont know the builds either. Then you either have them change or kick, and at the same time try to find more people. After 30+ min the people who had the build right the first time will leave. When you eventually get a group together, they will probably lose the first round 3/4 times. Then people rage quit and you can't get a group back together. So then you get your 5 fame for 3 hours of playing... wow rank 5 is like what 600 fame i think? That's 4 months of frustraiting playing time. It seems like at least with me, I dont see many people again doing HA after the first time i see them.

So do you have a real reason NOT to encourage people to help the new players. Or are you gonna have the same excuse as the other guys "ZOMG THOSE NOOBS NEED TO WORK AS HARD AS I DID TO GET MY RANK 6"

---------

BTW I was just in a group with a r7 leading. Members were from r3-7. Best team i've had in a while, sadly we only had like a 2 win streak because we couldn't beat the relic run. But the thing is, from observer mode, you can't learn how to play that relic run map, or any of the maps before. He set out a general plan for us because we mostly didn't know how to do it. The first time we lost was close, 3-4 and one my teammate just ragequit, we still had a chance there. The second time we got smoked by a good team. But at least i'll know what to do next time we get that map.

Also managed to find a group with a r11 who created some unranked group, somewhat heroway. I learned how to play mes.

ac1inferno · Sep 09, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

ya make your own group, tried that already lol. Seems like most of them don't know what they are doing either. I tried tell this monk what build to bring... and he just wont even respond because he doesn't listen, or hes just confused. Most other people dont know the builds either. Then you either have them change or kick, and at the same time try to find more people. After 30+ min the people who had the build right the first time will leave. When you eventually get a group together, they will probably lose the first round 3/4 times. Then people rage quit and you can't get a group back together. So then you get your 5 fame for 3 hours of playing... wow rank 5 is like what 600 fame i think? That's 4 months of frustraiting playing time. It seems like at least with me, I dont see many people again doing HA after the first time i see them.

So do you have a real reason NOT to encourage people to help the new players. Or are you gonna have the same excuse as the other guys "ZOMG THOSE NOOBS NEED TO WORK AS HARD AS I DID TO GET MY RANK 6"

---------

BTW I was just in a group with a r7 leading. Members were from r3-7. Best team i've had in a while, sadly we only had like a 2 win streak because we couldn't beat the relic run. But the thing is, from observer mode, you can't learn how to play that relic run map, or any of the maps before. He set out a general plan for us because we mostly didn't know how to do it. The first time we lost was close, 3-4 and one my teammate just ragequit, we still had a chance there. The second time we got smoked by a good team. But at least i'll know what to do next time we get that map.

Also managed to find a group with a r11 who created some unranked group, somewhat heroway. I learned how to play mes.

Well, thats pug for you, disorganized and normally disforms after the first few losses. Its good you found some nice people though. Did you add them to your friends list so that you can ask if they are ever going to do it again? Also, you can get to know the layout for each of the maps and the objectives for winning by looking it up and reading about them on forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildWiki

The most powerful way to gain fame is to maintain a solid friends list and to be in an active guild. People that know of your skill and PvP expertise will readily invite you into groups even if you do not meet that group leader's rank requirement. This means you have a better chance of getting into organized teams, which generally have a much better success rate inside HA. Building a solid contact list is a difficult thing to accomplish, but once you have a few good contacts getting more becomes easier.

The best method to getting started would be to get into an active guild that at least on occasion will venture into HA. The second best method would be to roll a popular build and join a Pick Up Group (PUG) that does not require rank. In either case, when you win a few rounds add the leader of that group to your friends list and next time you are ready to venture into HA send a whisper to that person and ask if he is forming a group. In addition to adding group leaders to your friends list, add exceptional players and ask them if you can join their group later. By building your friends list with solid contacts you will have a much easier time joining successful groups and gaining the required rank.

Sniper22 · Sep 09, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

So do you have a real reason NOT to encourage people to help the new players. Or are you gonna have the same excuse as the other guys "ZOMG THOSE NOOBS NEED TO WORK AS HARD AS I DID TO GET MY RANK 6"

??? lol, u missed that question

ac1inferno · Sep 09, 2007, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Did you read my posts saying that I would answer questions that a player would ask me? Is that not helpful enough? Is the only way of helping a lower ranker is to let them in my group? I never said that we shouldn't help new players. I just don't like your idea that the only way to learn is to let a high ranker hold your hand and gain the fame for you by letting you into the group. New players have to understand that getting a rank is hard and that they can't expect to just get it very easily. Personally, I think that a person who earns his rank by him/herself would be better off than a person who received help the whole way and had someone else gain the fame for them. As I said earlier

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

receiving help isn't bad, but not doing anything on their own is.